Leslie is one of Brutally Honest's guest bloggers and she has done an outstanding job thus far, not just in posting her own thoughts, but in replying to my own posts and the comments left by others, as she's done here while engaging Rick of a new life emerging.
They were discoursing on notions of violence, of maturity, and being Christ-like. Their exchange is worthy of reading in it's entirety but I was especially fond of Leslie's comments excerpted here:
I mean, has anyone stopped to wonder why God has inflicted men with so much aggressive testosterone in the first place? This is a rhetorical question. : ) Still, if I were being assaulted in some alley, I would hope that a good man walking by wouldn’t choose that moment to ignore his instincts [and] take the so-called high road.
I'm not usually prone to taking the so called high road. It's not that I intentionally decide to be passionate, it's just that I am. And that passion, that spanish part of me that boils over rather naturally, is something that really seethes the prim and proper liberal who desires to "dialog" and "communicate in a style that lends to mutual respect, to learning, to discussion".
Rick is aware of my... er... passionate style. And yet we've "dialogued" and perhaps some "mutual respect" takes place. After all, a new life emerging is on the blogroll here and as of this particular moment, Brutally Honest is on Rick's blogroll.
But I'm struck with what consistently takes place over at Mike's place.
As anyone who reads Mike regularly is aware, the Bush administration is maligned often and swipes are also taken, more than occasionally, against conservative/traditional Christians and what some might call orthodox belief.
Which of course stirs my passions.
So I reply and things are going along rather nicely over there on a recent Mike post until David joins the fray. David says things like:
I find it interesting to see that this thread has pursued such a wild tangent. Mike asked this to be referenced in terms of faith - pro or con. Instead it has turned into a vitriolic and myopic rant from Rick.
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Perhaps Rick, to turn the table and use a horrificaly painful rhetorical device, you might consider that 9/11 held other lessons. That the American Dream is a nightmare to some, that the consumption it mandates comes at the expense of others and produces an excrement that is never dumped on home turf but always exported.
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Rick is clearly an intelligent person and he clearly feels very strongly about his country (I assume he's American). But it's clear he has other priorities than those of Christ. We are arguing something here that is so rooted in worldview that if any intelligent dialogue is to be had the ground work is far from being done.
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Rick, I respect your right and responsibility to have an opinion about these things. I'm curious to know if your faith, whatever that is, informs your opinions on these matters.
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Let's approach this with a little humility and a little laughter.
I attempt at times, in my flawed and passionate way, to counter some of what's posted there. And at times, I'm brutally honest (imagine that...) especially when someone, with humility and laughter, sees me as vitriolic and myopic, sees the American Dream as a nightmare to some and as excrement (are you folks seeing the humility here... and isn't David funny?) that is exported and dumped, and that I have priorities that have little to do with Christ (I guess I'm a Satan worshipper) and that before I can engage David intelligently, I'm going to have to lay a little groundwork. And this folks is liberal humility steeped in laughter.
But it gets better. David goes on to conduct a cyber psychological exam and describes me confidently in the following way:
Rick - To be honest I didn't completely read your latest rant so I won't reply to it.
He didn't read what I wrote (this is called dialog by liberals) but based on his... well... woman's intuition maybe or perhaps his tea leaf reading skills, or maybe it's his ability to discern who I am without reading what I've written, he deals the coup de grace:
You seem really, really angry, and as I've no desire to engage in dialogue only to find it is just angry rants, then I won't continue. But understand that your communication style does not lend itself to discussion, to learning, or to mutual respect.
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We all see what we want to see and you seem very eager to find enemies around every corner.
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But Rick, this conversation is not being held in love, and that my brother is where I leave the conversation. When you can discuss these things with others without the vitriol and the acrimony, then I think you'll find others more inclined to take you seriously. As it is you are defensive, offensive, and deeply embattled. Makes it hard to talk calmly and find any wisdom under all the rage.
Bottom line is that I must learn to be humble and filled with laughter, like David, when I insult, condescend, patronize and otherwise belittle an opponent. This is called dialog, this is called being mutually respectful, this is called engaging in an environment where learning can take place.
I did respond over there, to David's comments, and to John's but Mike chose to delete those comments. You see, I wasn't being anywhere near as respectful, as endearing, as loving, as something other than offensive, defensive and embattling as David was to me.
Here are my comments that Mike chose to delete:
David... I don't need your arrogant, presumptious (and wrong-headed) cyber-psycho-analysis... and I'm not sure who else does.
You don't even read what I write (unless you mis-typed that sentence as well) and then you want to patronize what you think I wrote... ... you're in reality a laughable parody of who you think you are... and you know nothing of who you think I am.
You continue to live in your utopian ivory tower, condescending to those you deem to be unworthy of what you'd like to call dialogue... I'll continue to do what I do, which is recognize that kind of bullshit for what it is...
I then attempt to answer John's question to me but that was also deleted by Mike. I post it here in case John makes his way over and truly wants to know my thoughts.
John, Dictionary.com provides the definitions of torture that I'm familiar with and that ought to be familiar with those not interested in making political statements.
Note that the traditional definition references severe physical pain and/or excruciating pysical or mental pain.
Now if you think humiliation (ie. underwear on head, temperature changes, naked pyramids, or listening to Christina Aguilerra) qualifies as torture, then I'm going to suggest you visit a library and read some Alexander Solzenitzen or perhaps you read about what took place in concentration camps of Germany or you visit with the Berg's (family of Nick) or watch the beheading videos that are out there or simply visit the Iraqi prisons where Hussein tortured his political prisoners.
I also urge you to produce some substantiation for the charge that "alot of abuse has been going on in these prisons". Or do you define alot as vaguely and as advantageously to your particular position as you did torture?
I don't particularly see my response to be any more hostile or disrespectful than David's reply to me. My passion a bit more direct and to the point and not the passive-aggressive undercurrent of hostility that belies David's post. Yet Mike chose to delete my post and David's post, as of now, remains.
I just find this all curiously... hypocritical.
Or am I just completely in the wrong here?
UPDATE: Mike has deleted David's psychological rectal exam of me. He e-mails me the following to break the news:
OK - I'm going to delete it. But, do yourself a favour - keep a copy of it., and take it out and read it once in a while. He nailed you dead to rights, and you don't like it.
Peace,
Mike
Peace eh? Right, Mike... peace...
Sure...
MORE: La Shawn finds this piece that addresses the original issue:
“After speaking with soldiers, sailors, and civilians who collectively staff Gitmo, I left convinced that abuse definitely exists at the detention facilities, and it typically fails to receive the press attention it deserves: it’s the relentless, merciless attacks on American servicemen and women by these terrorist thugs. Many of the orange jumpsuit-clad detainees fight their captors at every opportunity, openly bragging of their desire to kill Americans. One has promised that, if released, he would find MPs in their homes through the internet, break into their houses at night, and ‘cut the throats of them and their families like sheep.’ Others claim authority and vindication to kill women, children, and other innocents who oppose their jihadist mission authorized by the Koran (the same one that hangs in every cell from a specially-designed holder intended to protect it from a touching the cell floor – all provided at U.S. taxpayer expense).”
UPDATE II: Mike has banned me from posting over at Waving and Drowning. That's too bad... and it's telling... He'll remain on the blogroll however.
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